Curse

Omniclasm · Nov 01, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

Every skill in the game has it's purpose and practical application unless otherwise nerfed beyond repair.

Would be nice if this was true. Many skills have no purpose or practical application. An example of this is Clamor of Souls, which has no practical use, and really has no purpose compared to other skills in the same attribute, which do the same thing, better, and non-elite.

blue.rellik · Nov 01, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

And you know everything about the 'better' skills because you know that the acronym OoU is 'Aura(Order) of Undeath.' (Wait for it, wait for it; 'ouch, sick burn.')

Oh I know I've won this now. An arguement is always lost when you resort to insulting knowledge instead of countering arguements

Quote:

Every skill in the game has it's purpose and practical application unless otherwise nerfed beyond repair. A Stupid Flesh Golem isn't nearly as bad as a Stupid Minion Master who will likely KILL himself off entirely from OoU because he hasn't sufficient self heal enough.

It has been tested with 10 fiends that for the duration OoU is up, it cannot kill you.

Also a good MM used [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] and [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill] and possibly Vampiric Horrors.

Quote:

An AoTL Necromancer is an appetizer for any life stealing attacks as they're just not reduced.

Yes. Because life steal is running rampant in PvE isn't it? I mean there are lots of life-stealers in PvE aren't there? Maybe kournans or djinns? No they don't life steal. How about titans or imps? No, don't think so. Maybe afflicted are powerful life stealers or even possible charr? Let me think of the life stealing skills they use..........

This might take a while

Again, AotL + DB + MR = near invincibility

Drakken Breathes Fire · Nov 01, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

It has been tested with 10 fiends that for the duration OoU is up, it cannot kill you.

*ahem.*

[/QUOTE]
With many minions, the health loss can get out of hand. Try to either lower your health by using superior runes or have a powerful healing spell ready.

Assuming you have ten Horror-type minions that start attacking the moment you cast the spell, then assuming that all the minion's attacks hit, you will lose a total of 50% of your maximum health over the course of 5 seconds (assuming you have 480 health, that's 240 health), or 9.6 health lost per attack. At 16 Death Magic, this will deal total bonus damage of 340 damage. In combination with the minions' base damage, this is usually enough to kill a level 20 character in one casting.

If, however, you are using ten Bone Fiends (which attack somewhat faster than Horrors), the damage (and corresponding sacrifice) are much higher: a total loss of 70% of your maximum health, in return for 510 bonus damage.

The most efficient minion combination seems to be 5 Vampiric Horrors and 5 Bone Fiends. Against an AL 60 target, the Horrors and Fiends both average around 33 damage per hit, resulting in a net gain (from Vampiric Horrors) of (at 480 maximum health) 14 life per hit. This causes 28 health gained per casting from Vampiric Horrors, while Bone Fiends cost 29 health per cast. Overall, this will cost you a total of 48 life, plus one per minion pair. If you are using life-reducing Runes, it is possible to have more Fiends than Horrors and still result in little life lost. This is, of course, without factoring in the variable damage that the minions can do, resulting in varied health gains per hit.[/QUOTE]

I suppose they're lying then, eh?
Let's for arguements sake, just safely assume that you never get hit at all when that never happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Yes. Because life steal is running rampant in PvE isn't it? I mean there are lots of life-stealers in PvE aren't there? Maybe kournans or djinns? No they don't life steal. How about titans or imps? No, don't think so. Maybe afflicted are powerful life stealers or even possible charr? Let me think of the life stealing skills they use..........

This might take a while.

Yeah it would take me a while to find every source of life stealing and degen in ALL of Guild Wars. No monsters ever use ravenous Gaze in nightfall. (annoying assed Mandragors maybe?)

You've never come across ANY of these?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Life_st...uick_reference

What about these?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Regen/Degen_health_skills_quick_reference#Decrease_recov ery

Those are a lot of skills available to characters and monsters in pve.
Shame, they're never used.

Skyy High · Nov 01, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

This discussion was had over at GWOnline, and in I believe 20 pages of thread, not one build was posted that consisted of entirely non-elite skills that wouldn't be made better by adding an elite.

blue.rellik · Nov 01, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

*ahem.*

I suppose they're lying then, eh?

Where does it say that the necro would kill himself using it? You only provided evidence in support of what I said; that 10 fiends a using OoU won't kill you

Quote:

Let's for arguements sake, just safely assume that you never get hit at all when that never happens.

Let's ignore that I said a OoU necro would most like had Dark Bond and Mystic Regen (as well as Infuse Condition) which would grant him +6 regen (+9 with 8pts into Earth Prayers). No that's silly. I'll just run Flesh Golem, shambling horrors, fiends, bone horrors and heal area like most MM in the game run! I mean if the majority uses it then they must be right?

Quote:

Yeah it would take me a while to find every source of life stealing and degen in ALL of Guild Wars. No monsters ever use ravenous Gaze in nightfall. (annoying assed Mandragors maybe?)

Try harder. 1 creature is all you could think of? 1 creature? Out of over a hundred, you could only think of a one.

A better rebuttal to my answer is the EotN dinosaurs with their monster skill and the Angorodons but if you're stupid enough to go there with low health then you deserve to die.

[quote]

Quote:

You've never come across ANY of these?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Life_st...uick_reference

As I said, how many PvE monsters use those skills?

Quote:

What about these?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Regen/Degen_health_skills_quick_reference#Decrease_recov ery

[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill] + [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] + [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill].

Look at the last skill.

Quote:

Those are a lot of skills available to characters and monsters in pve.
Shame, they're never used.

Because out of a party of 8, you will always get targeted first. Of course! Why didn't I see that earlier? The necromancer always gets attacked!

arcady · Nov 01, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Not having any elite skills generally means you've been playing for about 10 minutes, and are therefore bad.

So you're saying that ten minutes after first buying GW you had managed to get to level 20 and get to a zone where there were elite skills available for your profession?

Even if I got run right out of pre-searing and straight to Beacon's Perch, bought a sig of capture along the way, and jump out and had a group kill the first boss we saw for me... I couldn't get an elite in 10 minutes. And as for Factions and Nightfall... just loading all the missions between level 1 and where you can get the first elite is going to take a lot longer than 10 minutes.

Winterclaw · Nov 01, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

An elite is a skill that is better than most however, depending on what you are trying to do with your build and what class you are, it might be difficult to fit an elite in.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Nov 01, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Try harder. 1 creature is all you could think of? 1 creature? Out of over a hundred, you could only think of a one.

A better rebuttal to my answer is the EotN dinosaurs with their monster skill and the Angorodons but if you're stupid enough to go there with low health then you deserve to die.
As I said, how many PvE monsters use those skills?

21 out of 29 of those life stealing skills appear on monsters in pve. (Give or take.)

Degen, is degen. It's common enough. With +9 regen, you can still be negated entirely with *HEAVY* enough degen witht he caps. (Rare, but it can//does happen.)

Really, I think we can find a better place to discuss the Flesh Golem//OoU comparisons other then here. This probably isn't the first time this has been debated over.

Where I do agree; a SMART MM wont die to OoU, some kid hitting wiki because he wants the leet DPS of OoU wont have the same finess that sya, you or any other pro MMer would have. (And should be better off as a N//M, one-of-each-kind, zookeeper.)

Still not to say Flesh Golem is entirely useless. He's not there to kill fast.
I agree, OoU damage is unparalleled. But Vampiric Horrors and Bone fiends cant soak up the pure ABUSE that a Flesh Golem can. He's like a free higher than level cap Warrior Hench (though without skills, so really more like a prophecies warrior hench) When you want to bring your Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Monk (or other necros) heroes instead of your Fighters. (That you can ALWAYS res//heal by yourself in a pinch. I don't consider 30 second recharge a LONG time to wait.)

If I wanted to bring an all Necro MM hero party? Sure I'd give one Flesh Golem just for fun, if not 2 of them for fun, and keep myself as the OoU.

Lastly for the record; I'm not knocking AoTL either, like I said originally every skill, in my belief, has its own practical application. Knocking on one just because there is better isn't necessary. No one forces anyone to use it.

It's whatever floats our boat. I've never seen a MM kicked for fielding either in a PUG.

Whatever though, man, we go our seperate ways. My seperate way brings 600 hp 103 armor AND OoU with AoTL hand in hand. (Although, never in the same skill bar, sadly.)

As far as the OP, y'see what Rukus elites can cause? lol

Longasc · Nov 01, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

[skill]Icy Veins[/skill] should not be forgotten, it's cool!

Pyro maniac · Nov 01, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

no-one mentioned [skill]glyph of renewal[/skill] as the best MM skill ever ..

CHunterX · Nov 01, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

no-one mentioned [skill]glyph of renewal[/skill] as the best MM skill ever ..

I loved those days...

zwei2stein · Nov 01, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Aside MM discussion, i have yet to see build which does not benefit from nonelite spell instead of elite.

Usually "builds working just fine" dont really do, but users got used to them so they cant see them underperforming. /best example is bad energy management: if you get used to regen after combat, you wont notice it, if you party with people who can handle their energy, you just rant about damn unconsiderate rushers and dont take hint./

There is only one reason for not having elite on skillbar: you cant cap it yet or you cant afford to cap it /doh, but understandable/.

I would like to be proved wrong thou, with build that simply works without elite on 100%...

But i have little faith for that: standard iconic builds have fitting and proven elites, and new original builds usually have to depend on gimmick to work on at least same level as standards and elites provide best gimmicks since they usually break rules.

Olim Chill · Nov 01, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Not having any elite skills generally means you've been playing for about 10 minutes, and are therefore bad.

Very wrong. My skillbar is elite-free and I generally kick hiney.

Malice Black · Nov 01, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

If you want to discuss the finer points of MM, take it to the correct forum.

Avarre · Nov 01, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olim lll

Very wrong. My skillbar is elite-free and I generally kick hiney.

I've done missions with my skillbar skill-free entirely. Does that mean I'm good? No, it means PvE is easy enough that I can be a burden on my team and still get by.

Players want the best skillbars to reduce the pressure on them to carry weaker characters.

Malice Black · Nov 01, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

I've won HA matches playing a Blood necro/Beast master...am I l33t too?

Onarik Amrak · Nov 01, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Way back when I first played Prophecies I didn't have any elites til I got to Drok's... The long way.

blue.rellik · Nov 01, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

21 out of 29 of those life stealing skills appear on monsters in pve. (Give or take.)

Then you consider this, are most of them high life steal with relatively low recharge spammed by monsters on a single target? Nope. Most are kinda small pieces and they are rarely focused on a single target.

Quote:

Degen, is degen. It's common enough. With +9 regen, you can still be negated entirely with *HEAVY* enough degen witht he caps. (Rare, but it can//does happen.)

I use Dark Bond, AotL, Infuse Conditions and Mystic Regen at spec 8 Earth Prayers. That gives me +12 as well as making me immune to conditions. Overkill? Probably but it also means that I can be careless with aggro as I'm harder to kill than a 55.

Quote:

Really, I think we can find a better place to discuss the Flesh Golem//OoU comparisons other then here. This probably isn't the first time this has been debated over.

Where I do agree; a SMART MM wont die to OoU, some kid hitting wiki because he wants the leet DPS of OoU wont have the same finess that sya, you or any other pro MMer would have. (And should be better off as a N//M, one-of-each-kind, zookeeper.)

Still not to say Flesh Golem is entirely useless. He's not there to kill fast.
I agree, OoU damage is unparalleled. But Vampiric Horrors and Bone fiends cant soak up the pure ABUSE that a Flesh Golem can. He's like a free higher than level cap Warrior Hench (though without skills, so really more like a prophecies warrior hench) When you want to bring your Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Monk (or other necros) heroes instead of your Fighters. (That you can ALWAYS res//heal by yourself in a pinch. I don't consider 30 second recharge a LONG time to wait.)

If I wanted to bring an all Necro MM hero party? Sure I'd give one Flesh Golem just for fun, if not 2 of them for fun, and keep myself as the OoU.

Lastly for the record; I'm not knocking AoTL either, like I said originally every skill, in my belief, has its own practical application. Knocking on one just because there is better isn't necessary. No one forces anyone to use it.

It's whatever floats our boat. I've never seen a MM kicked for fielding either in a PUG.

Whatever though, man, we go our seperate ways. My seperate way brings 600 hp 103 armor AND OoU with AoTL hand in hand. (Although, never in the same skill bar, sadly.)

As far as the OP, y'see what Rukus elites can cause? lol

Read my post and what part I highlighted. I never said Flesh Golem is useless, I was saying countering his statement that there was no good MM elites before Factions.

Olim Chill · Nov 01, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I've done missions with my skillbar skill-free entirely. Does that mean I'm good? No, it means PvE is easy enough that I can be a burden on my team and still get by.

Players want the best skillbars to reduce the pressure on them to carry weaker characters.

I was responding to a false blanket statement - not simply blowing my own horn... nor am I scoffing at elite skills.

upier · Nov 01, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

I used to run bars without an elite.
I wanted to play a specific way and there 8 skills that I considered more fun then any of the elites available. Hence - no elite on my bar.